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	<title>Comments on: Two Kinds of Faulty Statistics in Football</title>
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	<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/</link>
	<description>Attacking Football</description>
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		<title>By: Statitics and the Beautiful Game - The Run of Play</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3852</link>
		<dc:creator>Statitics and the Beautiful Game - The Run of Play</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3852</guid>
		<description>[...] so no one misses this who followed the brilliant comments thread in our earlier discussion of faulty statistics in football: We heard today from Bill Gerrard, the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] so no one misses this who followed the brilliant comments thread in our earlier discussion of faulty statistics in football: We heard today from Bill Gerrard, the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Gerrard</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3847</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Gerrard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3847</guid>
		<description>A belated follow-up to your discussion of applying statistics to football. Unlike baseball and other striking-and-fielding games in which human observation and the paper-and-pencil method can go a long way to recording player activity, football and other invasion team sports need a certain level of technology to gather even a minimum amount of player action data. And if you want data on activity off the ball you need a tracking system. This is expensive. Combine the cost with the obvious concerns of teams over maintaining confidentiality and not surprisingly little player performance data is in the public domain. At least not in a form that allows much in the way of systematic analysis. So most of my own work over the last five years has not been published since I&#039;ve had to sign confidentiality clauses with teams to get access to their data. (My 2007 article uses some historic Opta data that was published in a series of four yearbooks.)

My collaboration with Billy Beane continues but the research remains highly developmental and is not being used in the day-to-day operations of the A&#039;s soccer team, the San Jose Earthquakes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A belated follow-up to your discussion of applying statistics to football. Unlike baseball and other striking-and-fielding games in which human observation and the paper-and-pencil method can go a long way to recording player activity, football and other invasion team sports need a certain level of technology to gather even a minimum amount of player action data. And if you want data on activity off the ball you need a tracking system. This is expensive. Combine the cost with the obvious concerns of teams over maintaining confidentiality and not surprisingly little player performance data is in the public domain. At least not in a form that allows much in the way of systematic analysis. So most of my own work over the last five years has not been published since I&#8217;ve had to sign confidentiality clauses with teams to get access to their data. (My 2007 article uses some historic Opta data that was published in a series of four yearbooks.)</p>
<p>My collaboration with Billy Beane continues but the research remains highly developmental and is not being used in the day-to-day operations of the A&#8217;s soccer team, the San Jose Earthquakes.</p>
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		<title>By: Austin Kelley</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3617</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin Kelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3617</guid>
		<description>I have also noticed this proprietary movement in football metrics, which is frustrating to American sports journalists. Last year I wrote a short piece about Cristiano Ronaldo for the &quot;Gift&quot; section of the now-defunct Play magazine. The piece was supposed to break down Ronaldo&#039;s skill metrically, or in any pseudo-scientific way possible (It was an assignment. Don&#039;t blame me). After a great deal of searching I found a Nike website that made some claims about Ronaldo&#039;s pace with and without the ball so I tried to contact Opta, the company that supposedly provided the data to Nike, to get more information about the vague stats. 

They responded:

&quot;Hi Austin,
 
&quot;I have been forwarded your enquiry with regards to Cristiano Ronaldo speed data as this was my deal.
 
&quot;For this particular project we used a partner company (who wish to remain un-named) who track player speeds. The data was not actually collected by Opta as player fitness data (speed and distance) is not something that we analyse. Unfortunately this therefore means that this is not something that we can provide going forward as the company that we used previously do not wish for their data to be used within the media sector.&quot;

When I pressed further, the Opt man wrote:

&quot;The reason for my &#039;secrecy&#039; is because 99% of the clients that our partners work with are proffessional football clubs who want to protect the data and dont want it in the mass media. The companies therefore dont want to associate their name with data in the media as they want to promote exclusivity to their clients.
 
Hope this makes sense.&quot;

Does it make sense? I tried Ronny&#039;s agent, I talked to Carlos Queiroz, to Manchester United (Don&#039;&#039;t get me started on the great wall of Man U), the Portuguese FA, and other stat companies, and found very little. I believe there are some serious metrical studies being produced in the Premiership (Arsenal supposedly rely heavily on them), but there is a very different notion of their provenance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have also noticed this proprietary movement in football metrics, which is frustrating to American sports journalists. Last year I wrote a short piece about Cristiano Ronaldo for the &#8220;Gift&#8221; section of the now-defunct Play magazine. The piece was supposed to break down Ronaldo&#8217;s skill metrically, or in any pseudo-scientific way possible (It was an assignment. Don&#8217;t blame me). After a great deal of searching I found a Nike website that made some claims about Ronaldo&#8217;s pace with and without the ball so I tried to contact Opta, the company that supposedly provided the data to Nike, to get more information about the vague stats. </p>
<p>They responded:</p>
<p>&#8220;Hi Austin,</p>
<p>&#8220;I have been forwarded your enquiry with regards to Cristiano Ronaldo speed data as this was my deal.</p>
<p>&#8220;For this particular project we used a partner company (who wish to remain un-named) who track player speeds. The data was not actually collected by Opta as player fitness data (speed and distance) is not something that we analyse. Unfortunately this therefore means that this is not something that we can provide going forward as the company that we used previously do not wish for their data to be used within the media sector.&#8221;</p>
<p>When I pressed further, the Opt man wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;The reason for my &#8216;secrecy&#8217; is because 99% of the clients that our partners work with are proffessional football clubs who want to protect the data and dont want it in the mass media. The companies therefore dont want to associate their name with data in the media as they want to promote exclusivity to their clients.</p>
<p>Hope this makes sense.&#8221;</p>
<p>Does it make sense? I tried Ronny&#8217;s agent, I talked to Carlos Queiroz, to Manchester United (Don&#8221;t get me started on the great wall of Man U), the Portuguese FA, and other stat companies, and found very little. I believe there are some serious metrical studies being produced in the Premiership (Arsenal supposedly rely heavily on them), but there is a very different notion of their provenance.</p>
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		<title>By: ursus arctos</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3612</link>
		<dc:creator>ursus arctos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3612</guid>
		<description>Your brother-in-law writes for BP?  Highly impressive.

My understanding is that Beane and Gerrard are still working together and that their &quot;product&quot; is intended to be proprietary, at least in the initial stages.   I haven&#039;t read the article (I don&#039;t have access to a university library at the moment), but the abstract indicates that Gerrard is well aware of some of the most fundamental challenges to developing something of real value.

It&#039;s interesting to see that serious research into football/soccer metrics appears to be proceeding on a largely proprietary basis (see, e.g., Actim and the Beane/Gerrard effort), whereas Sabermetrics was for many years a pretty pure &quot;open source&quot; movement.  It would be unfortunate if Beane&#039;s success at demonstrating that one can &quot;monetize&quot; the results of Sabermetric analysis in baseball leads to development in other sports being done behind closed doors.  I consider that to be particularly true for football/soccer; given the relative lack of sophistication of the current metrics and the worldwide reach of the sport, the most rewarding path is almost certainly one that takes advantage of contributions from the greatest number of interested individuals from the widest geographic range.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your brother-in-law writes for BP?  Highly impressive.</p>
<p>My understanding is that Beane and Gerrard are still working together and that their &#8220;product&#8221; is intended to be proprietary, at least in the initial stages.   I haven&#8217;t read the article (I don&#8217;t have access to a university library at the moment), but the abstract indicates that Gerrard is well aware of some of the most fundamental challenges to developing something of real value.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to see that serious research into football/soccer metrics appears to be proceeding on a largely proprietary basis (see, e.g., Actim and the Beane/Gerrard effort), whereas Sabermetrics was for many years a pretty pure &#8220;open source&#8221; movement.  It would be unfortunate if Beane&#8217;s success at demonstrating that one can &#8220;monetize&#8221; the results of Sabermetric analysis in baseball leads to development in other sports being done behind closed doors.  I consider that to be particularly true for football/soccer; given the relative lack of sophistication of the current metrics and the worldwide reach of the sport, the most rewarding path is almost certainly one that takes advantage of contributions from the greatest number of interested individuals from the widest geographic range.</p>
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		<title>By: Football News</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3608</link>
		<dc:creator>Football News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3608</guid>
		<description>Awesome article on Football statistics! After reading your article, I will be more careful when making football prediction with the statistics that I have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome article on Football statistics! After reading your article, I will be more careful when making football prediction with the statistics that I have.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Phillips</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3600</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3600</guid>
		<description>So many interesting questions around the subject of statistics in soccer. I&#039;ve been meaning for a long time to do a Stats Week here to explore the topic and finally conduct the interview I&#039;ve been planning with my brilliant brother-in-law who writes for Baseball Prospectus (basically the Bible of Sabermetric analysis in baseball) on the question of applying statistical models to fluid sports. They seem to have had a lot of success with their Basketball Prospectus spinoff, and I&#039;ve been curious whether the approach would have any application in football.

Two questions: Does anyone know what happened to that proprietary soccer-stats system Billy Beane was supposed to be working on with the guy from Leeds University? Billy Beane is the general manager of the Oakland A&#039;s in Major League Baseball (also a hardcore Tottenham fan) who pioneered a revolution in bringing statistical analysis to the task of building a team. The ownership group of the A&#039;s also owns the San Jose Earthquakes, and a few months ago Beane was reportedly collaborating with Leeds University Business School Professor Bill Gerrard to devise a series of new statistical categories for soccer. But I haven&#039;t heard if it&#039;s gone anywhere.

Second: Has anyone read Gerrard&#039;s paper, &quot;Is the Moneyball Approach Transferable to Complex Invasion Team Sports&quot;? (&lt;em&gt;Moneyball&lt;/em&gt; was the name of Michael Lewis&#039;s influential book on Billy Beane.)  The paper was published in the November 2007 issue of the &lt;em&gt;International Journal of Sport Finance&lt;/em&gt; and doesn&#039;t seem to be online, although the abstract is. I&#039;d be curious to read it. Anyway I love the phrase &quot;complex invasion team sport&quot; as a generic description of football.

From the abstract:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The paper considers the difficulties of transferring the Moneyball approach to more complex invasion team sports in which player performance is much more interdependent. Three problems are highlighted---the tracking problem (the identification, categorisation, and measurement of player actions), the weighting problem (the importance of player actions toward match outcomes), and the attribution problem (the allocation of individual contributions to joint and interdependent actions).
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Fascinating stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So many interesting questions around the subject of statistics in soccer. I&#8217;ve been meaning for a long time to do a Stats Week here to explore the topic and finally conduct the interview I&#8217;ve been planning with my brilliant brother-in-law who writes for Baseball Prospectus (basically the Bible of Sabermetric analysis in baseball) on the question of applying statistical models to fluid sports. They seem to have had a lot of success with their Basketball Prospectus spinoff, and I&#8217;ve been curious whether the approach would have any application in football.</p>
<p>Two questions: Does anyone know what happened to that proprietary soccer-stats system Billy Beane was supposed to be working on with the guy from Leeds University? Billy Beane is the general manager of the Oakland A&#8217;s in Major League Baseball (also a hardcore Tottenham fan) who pioneered a revolution in bringing statistical analysis to the task of building a team. The ownership group of the A&#8217;s also owns the San Jose Earthquakes, and a few months ago Beane was reportedly collaborating with Leeds University Business School Professor Bill Gerrard to devise a series of new statistical categories for soccer. But I haven&#8217;t heard if it&#8217;s gone anywhere.</p>
<p>Second: Has anyone read Gerrard&#8217;s paper, &#8220;Is the Moneyball Approach Transferable to Complex Invasion Team Sports&#8221;? (<em>Moneyball</em> was the name of Michael Lewis&#8217;s influential book on Billy Beane.)  The paper was published in the November 2007 issue of the <em>International Journal of Sport Finance</em> and doesn&#8217;t seem to be online, although the abstract is. I&#8217;d be curious to read it. Anyway I love the phrase &#8220;complex invasion team sport&#8221; as a generic description of football.</p>
<p>From the abstract:</p>
<blockquote><p>
The paper considers the difficulties of transferring the Moneyball approach to more complex invasion team sports in which player performance is much more interdependent. Three problems are highlighted&#8212;the tracking problem (the identification, categorisation, and measurement of player actions), the weighting problem (the importance of player actions toward match outcomes), and the attribution problem (the allocation of individual contributions to joint and interdependent actions).
</p></blockquote>
<p>Fascinating stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3596</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3596</guid>
		<description>Going a bit off track here, but game statistics are certainly interesting to consider in a cross-sport sort of way. At one extreme, you have baseball, a game so readily quantifiable that generations of analysts are comfortable with the notion of assigning an &quot;error&quot; when the expected doesn&#039;t happen and which can almost literally be mathematically recreated from its list of statistics, as though it were the sort of plain-text computer code that creates a 3D image of Woody the Cowboy when run through the computer.

At the other, you have soccer, which has defied any attempt to make a decent set of objective statistics from which different people would draw similar conclusions. I love the fact that one of the most &quot;cherished&quot; of soccer statistics is a gymnastics-like numerical representation of subjective judging.

In between, you have a game like basketball, with its soccer-like fluidity combined with a fundamental task -- scoring -- that is so relatively easy and common that it is fairly easily discussed statistically, though not with the certainty of baseball&#039;s proclamations of numerical certainty. You also have American football, which thrives on a steady diet of statistics that rival baseball for quantity, but so many of which are fundamentally flawed in that they fail to consider the complex interplay of the units (i.e. players) of ritualized land-war that is American football.

I realize I&#039;ve gone absolutely nowhere with this comment, but oh well; I&#039;ve enjoyed thinking about the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going a bit off track here, but game statistics are certainly interesting to consider in a cross-sport sort of way. At one extreme, you have baseball, a game so readily quantifiable that generations of analysts are comfortable with the notion of assigning an &#8220;error&#8221; when the expected doesn&#8217;t happen and which can almost literally be mathematically recreated from its list of statistics, as though it were the sort of plain-text computer code that creates a 3D image of Woody the Cowboy when run through the computer.</p>
<p>At the other, you have soccer, which has defied any attempt to make a decent set of objective statistics from which different people would draw similar conclusions. I love the fact that one of the most &#8220;cherished&#8221; of soccer statistics is a gymnastics-like numerical representation of subjective judging.</p>
<p>In between, you have a game like basketball, with its soccer-like fluidity combined with a fundamental task &#8212; scoring &#8212; that is so relatively easy and common that it is fairly easily discussed statistically, though not with the certainty of baseball&#8217;s proclamations of numerical certainty. You also have American football, which thrives on a steady diet of statistics that rival baseball for quantity, but so many of which are fundamentally flawed in that they fail to consider the complex interplay of the units (i.e. players) of ritualized land-war that is American football.</p>
<p>I realize I&#8217;ve gone absolutely nowhere with this comment, but oh well; I&#8217;ve enjoyed thinking about the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Fredorrarci</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3595</link>
		<dc:creator>Fredorrarci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3595</guid>
		<description>Great post. I wonder how much progress has been made in the statistical analysis of football by companies who retain a proprietary stake in such information, and who sell it on to managers. Meanwhile, the rest of us are left with corner counts, journos&#039; arbitrary marks out of ten and Actim&#039;s magic numbers.

If this is so, I think that even if someone does come up with some decent ways to measure the game and allows them to come into the public domain, they might be given short shrift by a soccer public who have been brought up on the idea that stats are practically useless in football -- an idea reinforced by the inadequacy of the hitherto available stats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. I wonder how much progress has been made in the statistical analysis of football by companies who retain a proprietary stake in such information, and who sell it on to managers. Meanwhile, the rest of us are left with corner counts, journos&#8217; arbitrary marks out of ten and Actim&#8217;s magic numbers.</p>
<p>If this is so, I think that even if someone does come up with some decent ways to measure the game and allows them to come into the public domain, they might be given short shrift by a soccer public who have been brought up on the idea that stats are practically useless in football &#8212; an idea reinforced by the inadequacy of the hitherto available stats.</p>
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		<title>By: ursus arctos</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2009/01/12/two-kinds-of-faulty-statistics-in-football/#comment-3593</link>
		<dc:creator>ursus arctos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=5751#comment-3593</guid>
		<description>But the Argentine league IS better than the Brazilian league . . .

The rest of the post is spot on (though I probably would not have been able to resist the standard dismissal of the IFFHS as the &quot;vanity project of a anorak from Wiesbaden&quot;).

Given that I was thinking &quot;no, it&#039;s easy copy&quot; a few seconds before I read just those words, it&#039;s your second point that I find more intriguing.  

The question, of course, is not whether more meaningful statistics could exist (they surely could), but what they might be.   An analogy that I&#039;ve used before is that whereas the linear and event-driven nature of sports like baseball lends itself well to Sabermetric measures grounded in simple arithmetic; the much more fluid, dynamic and, yes, uncertain, nature of football requires measures grounded in a type of quantum theory.

And given that I never took Math 21 (or whatever it is called now), that&#039;s as far as I&#039;ve ever gotten.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the Argentine league IS better than the Brazilian league . . .</p>
<p>The rest of the post is spot on (though I probably would not have been able to resist the standard dismissal of the IFFHS as the &#8220;vanity project of a anorak from Wiesbaden&#8221;).</p>
<p>Given that I was thinking &#8220;no, it&#8217;s easy copy&#8221; a few seconds before I read just those words, it&#8217;s your second point that I find more intriguing.  </p>
<p>The question, of course, is not whether more meaningful statistics could exist (they surely could), but what they might be.   An analogy that I&#8217;ve used before is that whereas the linear and event-driven nature of sports like baseball lends itself well to Sabermetric measures grounded in simple arithmetic; the much more fluid, dynamic and, yes, uncertain, nature of football requires measures grounded in a type of quantum theory.</p>
<p>And given that I never took Math 21 (or whatever it is called now), that&#8217;s as far as I&#8217;ve ever gotten.</p>
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