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	<title>Comments on: One or Two Cases of St. Vitus&#039; Dance</title>
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	<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/</link>
	<description>Attacking Football</description>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1604</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 06:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1604</guid>
		<description>You make a good point regarding Russia, but I was thinking that they were trying to imitate the artful brilliance of some of the Oranje (Van der Vaar, Sneijder, Van Nistelrooy) in making the slightest of contacts look like a certain foul but they ended up doing it amateurishly and hence melodramatically, in particular from Zhirkov who was the main culprit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a good point regarding Russia, but I was thinking that they were trying to imitate the artful brilliance of some of the Oranje (Van der Vaar, Sneijder, Van Nistelrooy) in making the slightest of contacts look like a certain foul but they ended up doing it amateurishly and hence melodramatically, in particular from Zhirkov who was the main culprit.</p>
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		<title>By: ursus arctos</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1603</link>
		<dc:creator>ursus arctos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 05:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1603</guid>
		<description>Definitively no.

The popularity of flopping in Spain and Italy has more to do with the quality of refereeing.  Spanish referees are without question now the worst in any of European major league and particularly susceptible to being taken in by operatic reactions (in part because they are often behind the play and don&#039;t see the actual contact and in part because many of them have operatic tendencies themselves).  Spanish refs are also intimidated by big crowds (and are inclined to give big clubs the benefit of every doubt anyway), and melodramatic reactions are needed to get the guys in the third tier at the Bernabeu or Camp Nou going, as the players look like ants from up there.

North Americans tend to think of Italy as the home of diving because Pippo Inzaghi has refined it to a high art and because North American commentators love to gripe about it, but it has actually become significantly less common in recent years, largely due to a Collina-led crackdown that has included a significant focus on &quot;simulazione&quot; in the endless &quot;moviola&quot; replay segments that occupy hours and hours of Italian television time every week.

The silent movie era face-grabbing that the Russians were pulling last night was for me the worst blot on a brilliant performance that channeled both the best of Lobanovski and the sublime Soviet ice hockey team of the  70s.

If I was Platini, I would simply bring in post hoc cards and suspensions for that kind of crap based on video evidence; it would disappear within a month.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitively no.</p>
<p>The popularity of flopping in Spain and Italy has more to do with the quality of refereeing.  Spanish referees are without question now the worst in any of European major league and particularly susceptible to being taken in by operatic reactions (in part because they are often behind the play and don&#039;t see the actual contact and in part because many of them have operatic tendencies themselves).  Spanish refs are also intimidated by big crowds (and are inclined to give big clubs the benefit of every doubt anyway), and melodramatic reactions are needed to get the guys in the third tier at the Bernabeu or Camp Nou going, as the players look like ants from up there.</p>
<p>North Americans tend to think of Italy as the home of diving because Pippo Inzaghi has refined it to a high art and because North American commentators love to gripe about it, but it has actually become significantly less common in recent years, largely due to a Collina-led crackdown that has included a significant focus on &#034;simulazione&#034; in the endless &#034;moviola&#034; replay segments that occupy hours and hours of Italian television time every week.</p>
<p>The silent movie era face-grabbing that the Russians were pulling last night was for me the worst blot on a brilliant performance that channeled both the best of Lobanovski and the sublime Soviet ice hockey team of the  70s.</p>
<p>If I was Platini, I would simply bring in post hoc cards and suspensions for that kind of crap based on video evidence; it would disappear within a month.</p>
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		<title>By: Fredorrarci</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1601</link>
		<dc:creator>Fredorrarci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 22:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1601</guid>
		<description>A. - just thinking out loud here, but do you think the attitudes to play-acting in Spain and Italy you describe above have anything to do with the popularity of basketball in those countries? Would basketball in Spain and Italy be strong enough for this to transfer from basketball to football?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A. &#8211; just thinking out loud here, but do you think the attitudes to play-acting in Spain and Italy you describe above have anything to do with the popularity of basketball in those countries? Would basketball in Spain and Italy be strong enough for this to transfer from basketball to football?</p>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1600</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 22:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1600</guid>
		<description>...and then there was Holland vs Russia and an epic demolition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and then there was Holland vs Russia and an epic demolition.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1599</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1599</guid>
		<description>A., that&#039;s a really good point. I&#039;m not sure what to make of it, but you&#039;re right. Is it that the referee is more focused on protecting the players, so it&#039;s easier to draw a yellow card by acting hurt? Or is it the moral decadence of a culture of fragility?

I&#039;m going to go out on a limb and say that it&#039;s not the moral decadence of a culture of fragility.

Zach, I think that&#039;s exactly right. And probably at that point we&#039;d see Americans start to complain more about flopping in basketball.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A., that&#039;s a really good point. I&#039;m not sure what to make of it, but you&#039;re right. Is it that the referee is more focused on protecting the players, so it&#039;s easier to draw a yellow card by acting hurt? Or is it the moral decadence of a culture of fragility?</p>
<p>I&#039;m going to go out on a limb and say that it&#039;s not the moral decadence of a culture of fragility.</p>
<p>Zach, I think that&#039;s exactly right. And probably at that point we&#039;d see Americans start to complain more about flopping in basketball.</p>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1598</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1598</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting to note that in the leagues where play acting is thought to be- and probably is- more prevalent, such as Italy and Spain, referees treat contact almost like in basketball. In those leagues it seems at times that basically anything other than shoulder to shoulder is deemed a foul (outside the box, of course!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#039;s interesting to note that in the leagues where play acting is thought to be- and probably is- more prevalent, such as Italy and Spain, referees treat contact almost like in basketball. In those leagues it seems at times that basically anything other than shoulder to shoulder is deemed a foul (outside the box, of course!).</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1597</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1597</guid>
		<description>A thought on basketball flops: I bet if faking an injury conferred a possible advantage, NBA players would writhe all over the floor. As it is, though, technicals for flagrant fouls are comparatively rare and seem to be given only in relatively clear-cut circumstances. Yellow cards, on the other hand, are pretty common and are handed out on a highly discretionary basis, and so faking injury on the soccer field confers more possible advantage than on the basketball court. I would say that the only &quot;American&quot; sport in which feigned injury yields a tactical advantage is that manly game of men, our helmeted regional variant of rugby football. And there, of course, one does see it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A thought on basketball flops: I bet if faking an injury conferred a possible advantage, NBA players would writhe all over the floor. As it is, though, technicals for flagrant fouls are comparatively rare and seem to be given only in relatively clear-cut circumstances. Yellow cards, on the other hand, are pretty common and are handed out on a highly discretionary basis, and so faking injury on the soccer field confers more possible advantage than on the basketball court. I would say that the only &#034;American&#034; sport in which feigned injury yields a tactical advantage is that manly game of men, our helmeted regional variant of rugby football. And there, of course, one does see it.</p>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1596</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1596</guid>
		<description>Perhaps you&#039;re right with regards to Portugal and I might have a different view on a second viewing but I remember the feeling I got watching live before the goal that the energy and &#039;belief&#039; was visibly diminishing on a lot of the players&#039; faces. Even Scolari looked resigned to defeat on the bench as the players took hopeful punts from long range. Nani and Postiga did provide some cutting edge and Deco was trying till the end but some of the rest were more drained, shall we say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps you&#039;re right with regards to Portugal and I might have a different view on a second viewing but I remember the feeling I got watching live before the goal that the energy and &#039;belief&#039; was visibly diminishing on a lot of the players&#039; faces. Even Scolari looked resigned to defeat on the bench as the players took hopeful punts from long range. Nani and Postiga did provide some cutting edge and Deco was trying till the end but some of the rest were more drained, shall we say.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1593</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1593</guid>
		<description>Maybe they were a bit tired, but they dominated possession and forced the Germans into some pretty desperate defending. The real problem to me was that they kept fouling the defenders and having to waste time getting the ball back, but that could be taken as a sign of trying too hard rather than of giving up.

I also thought that, Postiga excepted, they settled for too many long-range shots---probably a mark of the strength of the German defense. But they still attempted something like seven shots in the last ten minutes, got 4-5 of them on target, and scored one. Nani, who was responsible for some of the bad misses, also played with terrific intensity and really drove the rest of the team forward at times.

Agreed about the structural difference between basketball and football and the opportunities they afford for play-acting. Another big part of the difference is that there are no yellow cards in basketball, so players usually have less motivation to try to sell a foul as &quot;violent&quot;. But I do think there&#039;s a difference in ethos as well. Basketball players talk so much about &quot;respect&quot; and &quot;toughness&quot; and I think many of them would be too proud to go through the extreme pantomimes of pain that we sometimes see in soccer. 

Of course, the ethos is probably a luxury allowed by the structure; replace the seldom-invoked flagrant foul call with a yellow/red-card system and players might start swallowing their pride.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe they were a bit tired, but they dominated possession and forced the Germans into some pretty desperate defending. The real problem to me was that they kept fouling the defenders and having to waste time getting the ball back, but that could be taken as a sign of trying too hard rather than of giving up.</p>
<p>I also thought that, Postiga excepted, they settled for too many long-range shots&#8212;probably a mark of the strength of the German defense. But they still attempted something like seven shots in the last ten minutes, got 4-5 of them on target, and scored one. Nani, who was responsible for some of the bad misses, also played with terrific intensity and really drove the rest of the team forward at times.</p>
<p>Agreed about the structural difference between basketball and football and the opportunities they afford for play-acting. Another big part of the difference is that there are no yellow cards in basketball, so players usually have less motivation to try to sell a foul as &#034;violent&#034;. But I do think there&#039;s a difference in ethos as well. Basketball players talk so much about &#034;respect&#034; and &#034;toughness&#034; and I think many of them would be too proud to go through the extreme pantomimes of pain that we sometimes see in soccer. </p>
<p>Of course, the ethos is probably a luxury allowed by the structure; replace the seldom-invoked flagrant foul call with a yellow/red-card system and players might start swallowing their pride.</p>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1592</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1592</guid>
		<description>I reckon it&#039;s &#039;easier&#039; to make a bigger meal of things in soccer than it is basketball, just by the nature of the fouls and types of contact etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I reckon it&#039;s &#039;easier&#039; to make a bigger meal of things in soccer than it is basketball, just by the nature of the fouls and types of contact etc.</p>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1591</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1591</guid>
		<description>They did score but the intensity in their play was waning badly in the closing stages. It wasn&#039;t the busting guts stuff that one would have expected if say Germany was losing at the death of game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They did score but the intensity in their play was waning badly in the closing stages. It wasn&#039;t the busting guts stuff that one would have expected if say Germany was losing at the death of game.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1590</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1590</guid>
		<description>A., they scored in the 87th minute!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A., they scored in the 87th minute!</p>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1589</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1589</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not so sure about Portugal Brian, it looked to me that they kind of gave up and let their heads drop in the last 10 minutes or so. So unlike the attitude of what Turks in this tournament.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m not so sure about Portugal Brian, it looked to me that they kind of gave up and let their heads drop in the last 10 minutes or so. So unlike the attitude of what Turks in this tournament.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1588</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1588</guid>
		<description>Turkey-Croatia just ended. I&#039;m going to go out on a limb and say that the section of this post in which I discuss the contenders for best match of the tournament has been rendered moot. More thoughts when I&#039;m capable of having them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turkey-Croatia just ended. I&#039;m going to go out on a limb and say that the section of this post in which I discuss the contenders for best match of the tournament has been rendered moot. More thoughts when I&#039;m capable of having them.</p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/20/one-or-two-cases-of-st-vituss-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-1586</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=986#comment-1586</guid>
		<description>You just hit the nail on the head. Very good post. 

However, I think thankfully the antics of faking injury has slightly declined from its peak 3 or 4 years ago, although its still very much a part of the game. It annoys me that its not the number 1 priority to clamp down on this. 

The faking injury is also far less accepted in the EPL than in other leagues, (La Liga, Portugal and South American leagues are the worst for the &#039;flop with forty seconds of convulsions&#039;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You just hit the nail on the head. Very good post. </p>
<p>However, I think thankfully the antics of faking injury has slightly declined from its peak 3 or 4 years ago, although its still very much a part of the game. It annoys me that its not the number 1 priority to clamp down on this. </p>
<p>The faking injury is also far less accepted in the EPL than in other leagues, (La Liga, Portugal and South American leagues are the worst for the &#039;flop with forty seconds of convulsions&#039;)</p>
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