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	<title>Comments on: The Southgate Parallel: Euro 2008</title>
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	<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/</link>
	<description>Attacking Football</description>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1527</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 19:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1527</guid>
		<description>Long may he wave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long may he wave.</p>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1526</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1526</guid>
		<description>Of course Ballack is Ballack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course Ballack is Ballack.</p>
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		<title>By: roswitha</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1525</link>
		<dc:creator>roswitha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1525</guid>
		<description>Ah, yes yes -- the thought of Hungary also occurred to me, as did, perhaps, Uruguay, in the world rankings? In direct opposition you might say France have achieved Smugness in a relatively meteoric fashion, considering they were hardly a world power before &#039;86, and have failed to qualify for a couple of tournaments in between then and now.

I thought of applying something similar to clubs in Europe, but am finding it more difficult -- local traditions and the patterns of the win/loss data over a century of footie are complicating the criteria. Might it be objectively unfair to include Barcelona without including Espanyol, for example? If Scudetti add to the historic accruing of Smug, then Genoa should outstrip Roma, and probably does, in the minds of its supporters. I suspect the Sg Rankings will be far more useful in the case of clubs since it places more restrictions on the sample data wrt time and money and all that. 

A - most certainly the German team seem to be unexceptionably nice young men. But as Brian said, you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, yes yes &#8212; the thought of Hungary also occurred to me, as did, perhaps, Uruguay, in the world rankings? In direct opposition you might say France have achieved Smugness in a relatively meteoric fashion, considering they were hardly a world power before &#8217;86, and have failed to qualify for a couple of tournaments in between then and now.</p>
<p>I thought of applying something similar to clubs in Europe, but am finding it more difficult &#8212; local traditions and the patterns of the win/loss data over a century of footie are complicating the criteria. Might it be objectively unfair to include Barcelona without including Espanyol, for example? If Scudetti add to the historic accruing of Smug, then Genoa should outstrip Roma, and probably does, in the minds of its supporters. I suspect the Sg Rankings will be far more useful in the case of clubs since it places more restrictions on the sample data wrt time and money and all that. </p>
<p>A &#8211; most certainly the German team seem to be unexceptionably nice young men. But as Brian said, you know.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1524</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1524</guid>
		<description>Ballack&#039;s facial expressions aside, I agree. I&#039;d guess that the kind of smugness Roswitha had in mind had more to do with the assumptions of the supporters than with the attitude of the squad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ballack&#8217;s facial expressions aside, I agree. I&#8217;d guess that the kind of smugness Roswitha had in mind had more to do with the assumptions of the supporters than with the attitude of the squad.</p>
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		<title>By: A.</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1523</link>
		<dc:creator>A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1523</guid>
		<description>I think much of Germany&#039;s smugness came from without rather than within the squad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think much of Germany&#8217;s smugness came from without rather than within the squad.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1521</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1521</guid>
		<description>I think the Smug/Non-Smug Parallel is the long-term ranking of which the Southgate Parallel is meant to be the medium-term equivalent. Once your team crosses that line, it takes an enormous stretch of sustained winning or losing to put you back on the other side of it. In the early 50s, Hungary would have been the Smuggest team in the world, but they lost their Smugness through years of collapse, and today it&#039;s hard to imagine how they could ever be Smug again.

I think Southgate Rankings could be seen as an attempt to capture individual moments in the glacial transitions between Smug and Non-Smug. Incidentally, I think your division of the Euro teams is exactly right, and that one of the reasons a tournament like the Euros is so interesting it that it dramatically increases the possibility of teams moving up and down the list. Portugal could end the tournament in the lower tiers of Smug or well down in the basin of Non-Smug, and while none of the other Smug teams probably stands in danger of demotion, our sense of their &lt;em&gt;relative&lt;/em&gt; Smugness can and will change in a way that it doesn&#039;t in odd-numbered years.

Germany had some Smugness taken off them today, I&#039;d say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Smug/Non-Smug Parallel is the long-term ranking of which the Southgate Parallel is meant to be the medium-term equivalent. Once your team crosses that line, it takes an enormous stretch of sustained winning or losing to put you back on the other side of it. In the early 50s, Hungary would have been the Smuggest team in the world, but they lost their Smugness through years of collapse, and today it&#8217;s hard to imagine how they could ever be Smug again.</p>
<p>I think Southgate Rankings could be seen as an attempt to capture individual moments in the glacial transitions between Smug and Non-Smug. Incidentally, I think your division of the Euro teams is exactly right, and that one of the reasons a tournament like the Euros is so interesting it that it dramatically increases the possibility of teams moving up and down the list. Portugal could end the tournament in the lower tiers of Smug or well down in the basin of Non-Smug, and while none of the other Smug teams probably stands in danger of demotion, our sense of their <em>relative</em> Smugness can and will change in a way that it doesn&#8217;t in odd-numbered years.</p>
<p>Germany had some Smugness taken off them today, I&#8217;d say.</p>
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		<title>By: roswitha</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1520</link>
		<dc:creator>roswitha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1520</guid>
		<description>Brian, I have been thinking about this, and I applaud your calibration of what is a difficult and sensitive set of notions about superiority. In my blunt-axe worldview I see a similar dividing line as the Southgate Parallel, but without any arithmetic backup to my own rankings I conduct a broad division between Smug &amp; Non-Smug. Smug Teams are historic winners who continue to enjoy the expectation of success, have entire systems of propagation [and propaganda] in place from their supporters, &quot;footballing traditions&quot; that create self-perpetuating stereotypes and win - or lose - matches for them, and, at least among their English-speaking fans, seem to have moral judgments attached to their results. 

Obviously the Non-Smug Teams, on this basis, outnumber the Smug Teams fairly heavily. For me, Italy, France, Germany, Spain and Holland are all Smug and look set to remain so, regardless of this tournament&#039;s outcome. I am reluctant to include Portugal because of their relative lack of success and their geocultural overshadowing by Spain and Brazil, but Martha told me recently that 12000 fans recently paid to watch them train; a casual look at their expensive team and high-profile manager might indicate that they are ready to take their place in the sun. 

Everyone else remains in the Non-Smug category for now, even the staggeringly well-off Russia and Euro Champions Greece; it remains to be seen if the tournament changes anything for them.

[Supporting one Smug team disallows me from supporting any of the others, but damn those Dutch are a fine lot.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, I have been thinking about this, and I applaud your calibration of what is a difficult and sensitive set of notions about superiority. In my blunt-axe worldview I see a similar dividing line as the Southgate Parallel, but without any arithmetic backup to my own rankings I conduct a broad division between Smug &amp; Non-Smug. Smug Teams are historic winners who continue to enjoy the expectation of success, have entire systems of propagation [and propaganda] in place from their supporters, &#8220;footballing traditions&#8221; that create self-perpetuating stereotypes and win &#8211; or lose &#8211; matches for them, and, at least among their English-speaking fans, seem to have moral judgments attached to their results. </p>
<p>Obviously the Non-Smug Teams, on this basis, outnumber the Smug Teams fairly heavily. For me, Italy, France, Germany, Spain and Holland are all Smug and look set to remain so, regardless of this tournament&#8217;s outcome. I am reluctant to include Portugal because of their relative lack of success and their geocultural overshadowing by Spain and Brazil, but Martha told me recently that 12000 fans recently paid to watch them train; a casual look at their expensive team and high-profile manager might indicate that they are ready to take their place in the sun. </p>
<p>Everyone else remains in the Non-Smug category for now, even the staggeringly well-off Russia and Euro Champions Greece; it remains to be seen if the tournament changes anything for them.</p>
<p>[Supporting one Smug team disallows me from supporting any of the others, but damn those Dutch are a fine lot.]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1480</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1480</guid>
		<description>To me, too, but they&#039;re the oddsmakers&#039; favorites by a substantial margin and virtually all the pre-tournament analysis I&#039;ve read either picks them to win outright or puts them on a shortlist of the likeliest teams. That&#039;s due in part to their relatively easy draw, but I still have a sense of a cresting wave of belief/expectation behind them.

So the plus sign isn&#039;t based on their recent performances so much as on the fact that they seem to be more imposingly on everyone&#039;s minds even than they were before the World Cup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, too, but they&#8217;re the oddsmakers&#8217; favorites by a substantial margin and virtually all the pre-tournament analysis I&#8217;ve read either picks them to win outright or puts them on a shortlist of the likeliest teams. That&#8217;s due in part to their relatively easy draw, but I still have a sense of a cresting wave of belief/expectation behind them.</p>
<p>So the plus sign isn&#8217;t based on their recent performances so much as on the fact that they seem to be more imposingly on everyone&#8217;s minds even than they were before the World Cup.</p>
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		<title>By: ursus arctos</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1479</link>
		<dc:creator>ursus arctos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1479</guid>
		<description>Using your methodology, I would probably make France 2 and Holland 1.  

I hadn&#039;t paid attention to the trend markings.  What is the basis for Germany&#039;s plus sign?  They have looked rather unconvincing to me against Belarus and Serbia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using your methodology, I would probably make France 2 and Holland 1.  </p>
<p>I hadn&#8217;t paid attention to the trend markings.  What is the basis for Germany&#8217;s plus sign?  They have looked rather unconvincing to me against Belarus and Serbia.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2008/06/07/the-southgate-parallel-euro-2008/#comment-1478</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/?p=950#comment-1478</guid>
		<description>Structurally, two teams from Group A have to make it, of course. But I&#039;m not using the table to try to predict the actual quarterfinal; rather to draw up a sort of ideal quarterfinal based on widespread feeling about the teams.

Feelings which are culturally influenced, certainly, which is one reason I&#039;m curious to hear from as many people as possible about their sense of the correct order of the table. 

My sense of France when I was putting together the list was that everyone agrees they&#039;re in decline (hence the minus sign), but that they&#039;ve had so much success in the last ten years that they still have a certain aura of strength. I also think their position is unstable, and that they could move significantly up or down depending on early results in the tournament.

How far down would you move them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Structurally, two teams from Group A have to make it, of course. But I&#8217;m not using the table to try to predict the actual quarterfinal; rather to draw up a sort of ideal quarterfinal based on widespread feeling about the teams.</p>
<p>Feelings which are culturally influenced, certainly, which is one reason I&#8217;m curious to hear from as many people as possible about their sense of the correct order of the table. </p>
<p>My sense of France when I was putting together the list was that everyone agrees they&#8217;re in decline (hence the minus sign), but that they&#8217;ve had so much success in the last ten years that they still have a certain aura of strength. I also think their position is unstable, and that they could move significantly up or down depending on early results in the tournament.</p>
<p>How far down would you move them?</p>
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