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	<title>Comments on: Going to Ground in America and Europe</title>
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	<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/</link>
	<description>Attacking Football</description>
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		<title>By: One or Two Cases of St. Vitus&#8217;s Dance - The Run of Play</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-1584</link>
		<dc:creator>One or Two Cases of St. Vitus&#8217;s Dance - The Run of Play</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-1584</guid>
		<description>[...] on diving in soccer, when American sports have their own problems with cheating. This is something I&#8217;ve wondered about, too, and after giving it some thought, my guess is that it&#8217;s not the diving Americans mind [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on diving in soccer, when American sports have their own problems with cheating. This is something I&#8217;ve wondered about, too, and after giving it some thought, my guess is that it&#8217;s not the diving Americans mind [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ursus arctos</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>ursus arctos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-126</guid>
		<description>Ah, Bill Simmons, THE go-to-guy for sensitive cultural commentary.

That is a particularly hillarious example, given that I distinctly recall Simmons&#039; hero Larry Bird being a past master at drawing a charge.  French Lick is certainly exotically foreign to me, but I&#039;ve never seen Simmons take that position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Bill Simmons, THE go-to-guy for sensitive cultural commentary.</p>
<p>That is a particularly hillarious example, given that I distinctly recall Simmons&#8217; hero Larry Bird being a past master at drawing a charge.  French Lick is certainly exotically foreign to me, but I&#8217;ve never seen Simmons take that position.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 22:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-124</guid>
		<description>Ursus &#8212; Really interesting, and you&#039;re right about the flopping/diving charge tending to carry a xenophobic undercurrent.  We&#039;ve seen it, albeit more quietly, in America, with the recent influx of foreign players into the NBA.  I even vaguely recall a Bill Simmons column in which he specifically blamed the NBA&#039;s flopping epidemic on &lt;em&gt;foreigners who were raised on soccer&lt;/em&gt;.  (I guess it&#039;s only fair, since there are so many devastating ways in which American basketball can be blamed for Rio Ferdinand.)

I do think some version of the cultural difference I sketched in the post is at work in some of our reactions, but it&#039;s clearly only one ingredient and is contingent on any number of factors.  (&lt;em&gt;Hard-hitting, definite opinions.  That&#039;s why you read this blog.&lt;/em&gt;)        No chance of building a complete account of this, I&#039;m sure, but it&#039;s fascinating to think about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ursus &mdash; Really interesting, and you&#8217;re right about the flopping/diving charge tending to carry a xenophobic undercurrent.  We&#8217;ve seen it, albeit more quietly, in America, with the recent influx of foreign players into the NBA.  I even vaguely recall a Bill Simmons column in which he specifically blamed the NBA&#8217;s flopping epidemic on <em>foreigners who were raised on soccer</em>.  (I guess it&#8217;s only fair, since there are so many devastating ways in which American basketball can be blamed for Rio Ferdinand.)</p>
<p>I do think some version of the cultural difference I sketched in the post is at work in some of our reactions, but it&#8217;s clearly only one ingredient and is contingent on any number of factors.  (<em>Hard-hitting, definite opinions.  That&#8217;s why you read this blog.</em>)        No chance of building a complete account of this, I&#8217;m sure, but it&#8217;s fascinating to think about.</p>
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		<title>By: ursus arctos</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>ursus arctos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-123</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that it is the physicality that does it, I think it is more what become accepted as the &quot;unwritten rules&quot; of the game in a particular locale.

In American football, for instance, there is quite an established tradition of wide receivers trying to exaggerate contact in order to draw pass interference penalties and kickers doing the same with roughing penalties (interestingly, in both such cases, the benefit to successfully pulling off such deception is disproportional to the harm suffered, just like a penalty in football); neither is considered a threat to the underlying value of the sport because they have been part of the game for a long time.

In my experience, it is often the case that such offences against the &quot;spirit of the game&quot; are used as a stick to beat a particular population of players who are unpopular for some other reason.  Thus we saw the tarring of European ice hockey players as being more apt to use their stick as a weapon, as if there had never been a slash in the all North American NHL.  The current English campaign against diving is notable for its xenophobia; it is never Stevie G or Becks who goes down easily, it is always some dodgy foreigner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that it is the physicality that does it, I think it is more what become accepted as the &#8220;unwritten rules&#8221; of the game in a particular locale.</p>
<p>In American football, for instance, there is quite an established tradition of wide receivers trying to exaggerate contact in order to draw pass interference penalties and kickers doing the same with roughing penalties (interestingly, in both such cases, the benefit to successfully pulling off such deception is disproportional to the harm suffered, just like a penalty in football); neither is considered a threat to the underlying value of the sport because they have been part of the game for a long time.</p>
<p>In my experience, it is often the case that such offences against the &#8220;spirit of the game&#8221; are used as a stick to beat a particular population of players who are unpopular for some other reason.  Thus we saw the tarring of European ice hockey players as being more apt to use their stick as a weapon, as if there had never been a slash in the all North American NHL.  The current English campaign against diving is notable for its xenophobia; it is never Stevie G or Becks who goes down easily, it is always some dodgy foreigner.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-118</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-118</guid>
		<description>Justin - Great point about ice hockey.  I think there are some sports that are simply so physically rough that any display of weakness will always be unacceptable.  (You&#039;d never see diving in boxing, for example.)  That&#039;s why I thought basketball was the best comparison with soccer: both physical games, but with definite restraints in place.  And I think you could argue that Europeans are seen as &quot;soft&quot; in hockey because it&#039;s treated more like soccer in Europe, whereas in North America it&#039;s treated more like rugby.

Still, I think you&#039;re right that the conditions of particular leagues and the styles of particular sports are a factor in fan attitudes toward simulation.  And that that factor is in play as well, along with larger cultural differences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin &#8211; Great point about ice hockey.  I think there are some sports that are simply so physically rough that any display of weakness will always be unacceptable.  (You&#8217;d never see diving in boxing, for example.)  That&#8217;s why I thought basketball was the best comparison with soccer: both physical games, but with definite restraints in place.  And I think you could argue that Europeans are seen as &#8220;soft&#8221; in hockey because it&#8217;s treated more like soccer in Europe, whereas in North America it&#8217;s treated more like rugby.</p>
<p>Still, I think you&#8217;re right that the conditions of particular leagues and the styles of particular sports are a factor in fan attitudes toward simulation.  And that that factor is in play as well, along with larger cultural differences.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-116</guid>
		<description>Great article, but I don&#039;t necessarily agree with your analysis of the North American attitude towards diving. In particular ice hockey seems to reverse the attitudes you&#039;ve described above: in the NHL it&#039;s the Europeans who are known for their diving and soft play and the North American players who are celebrated for their &#039;tough as nails&#039; grittiness and &#039;never say die attitudes&#039;.

In ice hockey diving is generally considered dishonorable and downright &#039;unmanly&#039;. After all, this is a sport that whose rules tacitly accept and whose culture explicitly encourages bouts of fisticuffs and other forms of physical roughness. Imagine a player getting into a fight and then diving to escape? They would be the subject of never-ending ridicule.

Of course this attitude doesn&#039;t stop some players from diving to draw penalties, but the overall attitude in the sport is that it&#039;s not at all acceptable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article, but I don&#8217;t necessarily agree with your analysis of the North American attitude towards diving. In particular ice hockey seems to reverse the attitudes you&#8217;ve described above: in the NHL it&#8217;s the Europeans who are known for their diving and soft play and the North American players who are celebrated for their &#8216;tough as nails&#8217; grittiness and &#8216;never say die attitudes&#8217;.</p>
<p>In ice hockey diving is generally considered dishonorable and downright &#8216;unmanly&#8217;. After all, this is a sport that whose rules tacitly accept and whose culture explicitly encourages bouts of fisticuffs and other forms of physical roughness. Imagine a player getting into a fight and then diving to escape? They would be the subject of never-ending ridicule.</p>
<p>Of course this attitude doesn&#8217;t stop some players from diving to draw penalties, but the overall attitude in the sport is that it&#8217;s not at all acceptable.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-112</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-112</guid>
		<description>Linda - You&#039;re right, of course, that there&#039;s no uniformity among European nations when it comes to their attitudes toward diving.  I probably exaggerated  European disapproval of the practice outside England in order to make a stronger contrast.  But I&#039;ve changed the post in a couple of places to make it clear that the feeling in Spain and the feeling in England aren&#039;t necessarily the same.

The question of whether hard fouls are more deplorable than diving is an interesting one.  I see what you mean about the prospect of a foul ruining someone&#039;s career, and I have no patience for the sort of Roy Keane romanticists who manage to admire players who deliberately look to cause injury.  At the same time, though, if we&#039;re seeing acts on the pitch as representative of human character traits, diving just seems so sneaky and vicious that it&#039;s hard to condone on any level.  It&#039;s like Peter Lorre in &lt;em&gt;Casablanca&lt;/em&gt;&#8212;he&#039;s probably not the worst person in the movie, but he&#039;s the one who makes you squirm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linda &#8211; You&#8217;re right, of course, that there&#8217;s no uniformity among European nations when it comes to their attitudes toward diving.  I probably exaggerated  European disapproval of the practice outside England in order to make a stronger contrast.  But I&#8217;ve changed the post in a couple of places to make it clear that the feeling in Spain and the feeling in England aren&#8217;t necessarily the same.</p>
<p>The question of whether hard fouls are more deplorable than diving is an interesting one.  I see what you mean about the prospect of a foul ruining someone&#8217;s career, and I have no patience for the sort of Roy Keane romanticists who manage to admire players who deliberately look to cause injury.  At the same time, though, if we&#8217;re seeing acts on the pitch as representative of human character traits, diving just seems so sneaky and vicious that it&#8217;s hard to condone on any level.  It&#8217;s like Peter Lorre in <em>Casablanca</em>&mdash;he&#8217;s probably not the worst person in the movie, but he&#8217;s the one who makes you squirm.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 23:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.runofplay.com/2007/12/05/going-to-ground-in-america-and-europe/#comment-109</guid>
		<description>I think a distinction could probably be made here between, say, Spain, and England, in their attitudes to diving.  In Spain exaggerating contact, at least, is seen as more or less par for the course, and almost as much outrage is spent on the subject of hard fouls.

Personally, I prefer to think of a career-threatening foul as even more dishonourable than a dive - at least dives don&#039;t affect a person&#039;s body and their lifestyle.  (Which is perhaps why I spend so much time getting annoyed at British commentators when watching Champions League games and my favourite league to watch is the Spanish one.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a distinction could probably be made here between, say, Spain, and England, in their attitudes to diving.  In Spain exaggerating contact, at least, is seen as more or less par for the course, and almost as much outrage is spent on the subject of hard fouls.</p>
<p>Personally, I prefer to think of a career-threatening foul as even more dishonourable than a dive &#8211; at least dives don&#8217;t affect a person&#8217;s body and their lifestyle.  (Which is perhaps why I spend so much time getting annoyed at British commentators when watching Champions League games and my favourite league to watch is the Spanish one.)</p>
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